electrical as a source of X10 issues

Fri Oct 11 15:12:09 EDT 2013

Hi Warren,

RE: "Ahha! This provides confirmation to my comment about the neutral/ground (they are bonded together at the panel in older panels) being important to balancing and equalizing the voltage."

I remember you telling me early on that you were a retired and life experienced electrician, so far be it for me to even try to disagree with you. My own best bud, and retired electrician, hates X10 or any of the other toys I have around here I've installed. His first point to me is that I am the only person he's ever heard still trying to use this stuff, as all his electrical friends and suppliers have such a dim view of the protocol, and it's various hiccups. Well… after four years of pounding away scientifically trying to narrow down here where my problems have been, I gained the wise and trusted assistance of both Michael and James, you, and a host of others on this list. One by one I have defeated noise makers and I think now signal suckers too, thanks to the Monterey Signal Analizer… particularly after recently learning how to use it to track down suckers with it. Still, my best bud, the retired electrician, thinks I'm crazy and continues to speak poorly of X10, Leviton and others supporting X10 mostly because it all comes from China now. (What doesn't)

I must be really unknowledgeable about new breaker boxes. Both mine have two (One is brand new) different busses for both ground and neutral. I've never seen one that didn't. Still, it's the neutral, not the ground, that carries the voltage. The ground, as I understand it, is a safety factor for surges and lightning to take it to the ground, and not put it on the neutral.

RE: "My mind wonders if a change in frequency (dropped) isn't causing the small voltage boost from the transformer. Sorry to dwell on this frequency thing but something still doesn't seem right here. If voltage is increasing from the transformer to your panel that flys in the opposite direction of what typically happens. Voltage (depending on distance and wire gauge) usually drops slightly. An increase is definitely not normal. I would ask that the power company look into this as what they are delivering to your panel isn't right even if it meets their specs."

Boy, I couldn't agree with you more, causing me to quarry the lineman at the time for some length. It was at that point he offered that iron in the soil between me and the transformer could possible explain the +2vac phenomena. However, again, I need to observe for a couple weeks to see if Michael's "Happiness" factor returns before calling them again. :-)

If "Happiness" does return, I want to try to hook up that Leviton whole house filter, and see if it finally works as advertised.

I'm just totally lost on your "frequency" concerns, let alone what I can do about them. I read your url, and it doesn't seem to bolster your position. Please educate me where I'm all wet.

Thanks,

George

On Oct 11, 2013, at 12:08 PM, Warren Whiteside <warrenwhiteside at verizon.net> wrote:

> On 10/11/2013 10:34 AM, George Handley wrote:
>> Warren, et all,
>> 
>> I'm sorry I failed to mention that my meter was the first place the lineman examined and took his readings, and said he checked the tightness of all connections. Although, because its located on the other side of an adjoining house, and it was pitch black except for his head gear's super bright LED flashlight, I didn't catch up with him until after he had been in my meter box. I failed  to ask him at that moment if he found my meter's terminals loose. All I know is that he's already checked them, and could have racheted them before I got there, but didn't feel it necessary to comment to me that anything was loose.  
>> 
>> We had more of a discussion at that first moment that he was reading 127 vac on one of my phases. You might recall with my cheap Radio Shack meter I was consistently getting 124.5-125vac. That, ironically, is KCP&L's top threshold  for voltage on any one leg. I remember him asking me if we've had a spat of burnt out light bulbs, and told him in four years, we really haven't had many burnt out bulbs… certainly nothing out of the ordinary. The other phase was within his tolerances.
>> 
>> I remember discussing what I felt the problem was, and that I used X10, which, of course, he'd never heard of, but quickly understood when I explained the general concept of PLC as it worked identical to the electronics each meter has to let KCP&L know not only the monthly meter readings, but can also denote when a meter is removed. At any rate, while next walking to their pedestal, I remember commenting on how important a ground (As well as a common) is in an X10 system, which he wanted to object to since "common is the same as ground" as he tried to tell me. Imagine my joy, after it took him 20 minutes to even open the pedestal, that we discovered that my grounding wire was totally loose in the pedestal and in no way connected to our home's electrical system. The only "ground" I had was the common.
> 
> Ahha! This provides confirmation to my comment about the neutral/ground (they are bonded together at the panel in older panels) being important to balancing and equalizing the voltage. I can imagine how you felt as to your take on isolating an issue that was with the utility company part. Obviously you had covered all other bases. I also would assume that just as SOP the lineman would have tightened those meter lugs while he was there. However the emphasis is with that assume word<g>.
>> 
>> Another idiosyncrasy was the fact that he also then went up the street to the feeding transformer to discover that it was correctly outputting 125vac on both legs, which, of course, begged the question of how I could be getting 127vac at my meter. Well… he admitted that was strange, and that he's only seen that phenomomana twice before in his 20 years, and concluded that the only thing he could think of was that there must be a lot of iron in our soil... that in effect, was acting like a transformer in itself.
> George,
> My mind wonders if a change in frequency (dropped) isn't causing the small voltage boost from the transformer. Sorry to dwell on this frequency thing but something still doesn't seem right here. If voltage is increasing from the transformer to your panel that flys in the opposite direction of what typically happens. Voltage (depending on distance and wire gauge) usually drops slightly. An increase is definitely not normal. I would ask that the power company look into this as what they are delivering to your panel isn't right even if it meets their specs.
> http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20071004045540AAgsGne
> 
> Warren
>> 
>> At any rate, after 24 hours, which is nothing, I can report now that I still had one scheduled event at dusk last night that failed to occur. You may have also seen what I wrote James regarding my four AC tests. The simple fact is that I need many weeks of observation to really get a correct "warm and fuzzy" feeling about where I really stand now.
>> 
>> Best wishes,
>> 
>> George
>> 
>> 
>> On Oct 10, 2013, at 5:56 PM, Warren Whiteside <warrenwhiteside at verizon.net> wrote:
>> 
>>> George, The lineman had no authority beyond the power company side. That is pretty standard policy except maybe in new construction. Good that your buddies are tightening the main lugs as they are yours. However, there are other possible trouble spots at the meter box. In most jurisdictions that box is the responsibility of the utility company and usually has their seal on it. In my time I've cut off a few but know that was a no-no except under certain conditions. The terminations in the meter box need checking.(imho)
>>> 
>>> Warren
>>> On 10/10/2013 5:30 PM, Handley George wrote:
>>>> Hi Warren, and thanks for your persistence!
>>>> 
>>>> I asked, but the lineman said they were not allowed into homes breaker boxes for liability reasons.
>>>> 
>>>> I have two electrician buddies, and we, just two weeks ago, retightened everything in both boxes, but not the main #5s feeding it. I'm sure my friends have the right hex tool to check them, and will make sure that does get checked.
>>>> 
>>>> It's too early for me to be able to report much more… it's just going to take time.
>>>> 
>>>> Thanks again,
>>>> 
>>>> George
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> On Oct 10, 2013, at 4:16 PM, Warren Whiteside <warrenwhiteside at verizon.net> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> George, that is really good news at what the utility guys found. I think we can be sure that your own ground is a goodie. That ground actually is needed to balance the single phase of 230 VAC we all buy as it is the center tap of a drop down transformer. (4160? to 230 VAC) Your ground was actually acting as the Neutral (or center tap) via what is sometimes called the phantom system (ground being common) The power company bore responsibility for this end of the incoming service and the loose terminals is an illustration of my comments concerning terminating aluminum wire. (expansion and contraction) Did they also check at your panel lugs on your Main breaker as a courtesy?
>>>>> 
>>>>> Warren
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