electrical as a source of X10 issues

Fri Oct 11 11:36:09 EDT 2013

Steve,

I, too, am no 1st ticket electrical engineer, but your statement, however true and "conventionally practiced" (And embraced by the lineman) totally contradicts Warren's response regarding how PLC works:

"George, that is really good news at what the utility guys found. I think we can be sure that your own ground is a goodie. That ground actually is needed to balance the single phase of 230 VAC we all buy as it is the center tap of a drop down transformer. (4160? to 230 VAC) Your ground was actually acting as the Neutral (or center tap) via what is sometimes called the phantom system (ground being common) The power company bore responsibility for this end of the incoming service and the loose terminals is an illustration of my comments concerning terminating aluminum wire. (expansion and contraction) Did they also check at your panel lugs on your Main breaker as a courtesy?
> 
>>>> 
>>>> Warren"

As I've stated recently several times, I need brute force time to see what, if anything, this has corrected. I can say, that not being able to hook up a Leviton PLC whole house filter without causing all sorts of X10 problems is just WRONG, and has been a real red flag for me since we installed the first filter with the same results. Consequently, I sure wish Michael or James pipes up on this exact subject so everyone will know.

Best wishes,

George

On Oct 11, 2013, at 9:59 AM, Steve Hume <stevelist at hume.ca> wrote:

> George,
> 
> In http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earthing_system it is mentioned that North America uses TN-C-S and that to me shows that a separate neutral to the transformer is not required, which could explain why folks are witnessing them not being connected. I am not a power engineer, but I think lots of ground references are good. You need to have designs that don't encourage current flow in the ground protective connections.
> 
> "The only "ground" I had was the common."  is design intent!  Now if your common goes loose again the ground connection will pick up the current flow to the transformer; a risk to the power maintenance guys.
> 
> Steve Hume
> On Oct 11, 2013, at 10:34 AM, George Handley <ghandley at kc.rr.com> wrote:
> 
>> Warren, et all,
>> 
>> I'm sorry I failed to mention that my meter was the first place the lineman examined and took his readings, and said he checked the tightness of all connections. Although, because its located on the other side of an adjoining house, and it was pitch black except for his head gear's super bright LED flashlight, I didn't catch up with him until after he had been in my meter box. I failed  to ask him at that moment if he found my meter's terminals loose. All I know is that he's already checked them, and could have racheted them before I got there, but didn't feel it necessary to comment to me that anything was loose.  
>> 
>> We had more of a discussion at that first moment that he was reading 127 vac on one of my phases. You might recall with my cheap Radio Shack meter I was consistently getting 124.5-125vac. That, ironically, is KCP&L's top threshold  for voltage on any one leg. I remember him asking me if we've had a spat of burnt out light bulbs, and told him in four years, we really haven't had many burnt out bulbs… certainly nothing out of the ordinary. The other phase was within his tolerances.
>> 
>> I remember discussing what I felt the problem was, and that I used X10, which, of course, he'd never heard of, but quickly understood when I explained the general concept of PLC as it worked identical to the electronics each meter has to let KCP&L know not only the monthly meter readings, but can also denote when a meter is removed. At any rate, while next walking to their pedestal, I remember commenting on how important a ground (As well as a common) is in an X10 system, which he wanted to object to since "common is the same as ground" as he tried to tell me. Imagine my joy, after it took him 20 minutes to even open the pedestal, that we discovered that my grounding wire was totally loose in the pedestal and in no way connected to our home's electrical system. The only "ground" I had was the common.
>> 
>> Another idiosyncrasy was the fact that he also then went up the street to the feeding transformer to discover that it was correctly outputting 125vac on both legs, which, of course, begged the question of how I could be getting 127vac at my meter. Well… he admitted that was strange, and that he's only seen that phenomomana twice before in his 20 years, and concluded that the only thing he could think of was that there must be a lot of iron in our soil... that in effect, was acting like a transformer in itself.
>> 
>> At any rate, after 24 hours, which is nothing, I can report now that I still had one scheduled event at dusk last night that failed to occur. You may have also seen what I wrote James regarding my four AC tests. The simple fact is that I need many weeks of observation to really get a correct "warm and fuzzy" feeling about where I really stand now.
>> 
>> Best wishes,
>> 
>> George
>> 
>> 
>> On Oct 10, 2013, at 5:56 PM, Warren Whiteside <warrenwhiteside at verizon.net> wrote:
>> 
>>> George, The lineman had no authority beyond the power company side. That is pretty standard policy except maybe in new construction. Good that your buddies are tightening the main lugs as they are yours. However, there are other possible trouble spots at the meter box. In most jurisdictions that box is the responsibility of the utility company and usually has their seal on it. In my time I've cut off a few but know that was a no-no except under certain conditions. The terminations in the meter box need checking.(imho)
>>> 
>>> Warren
>>> On 10/10/2013 5:30 PM, Handley George wrote:
>>>> Hi Warren, and thanks for your persistence!
>>>> 
>>>> I asked, but the lineman said they were not allowed into homes breaker boxes for liability reasons.
>>>> 
>>>> I have two electrician buddies, and we, just two weeks ago, retightened everything in both boxes, but not the main #5s feeding it. I'm sure my friends have the right hex tool to check them, and will make sure that does get checked.
>>>> 
>>>> It's too early for me to be able to report much more… it's just going to take time.
>>>> 
>>>> Thanks again,
>>>> 
>>>> George
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> On Oct 10, 2013, at 4:16 PM, Warren Whiteside <warrenwhiteside at verizon.net> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> George, that is really good news at what the utility guys found. I think we can be sure that your own ground is a goodie. That ground actually is needed to balance the single phase of 230 VAC we all buy as it is the center tap of a drop down transformer. (4160? to 230 VAC) Your ground was actually acting as the Neutral (or center tap) via what is sometimes called the phantom system (ground being common) The power company bore responsibility for this end of the incoming service and the loose terminals is an illustration of my comments concerning terminating aluminum wire. (expansion and contraction) Did they also check at your panel lugs on your Main breaker as a courtesy?
>>>>> 
>>>>> Warren
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